WHAT KIND OF A MAN DOES THE WORLD NEED RIGHT NOW? (E05)

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TWO DADS A coaching conversation about life - Episode 05

What kind of a man does the world need now?

Luke Fenwick 0:04 Hello, and welcome back to Episode Five. What kind of a man does the world need right now? 1000s and 1000s of years ago a man needed to be uncompromising, unrelenting, possibly emotion less, and always looking to win situation as the world grew and expanded to flash forward to now, and the world needs so, so much more caring, passionate, giving, and understanding to name a few. In this week's episode, Shawn and I'd dig into what the world needs from us. Thanks for listening and watching if you do enjoy the show, like share, and absolutely hit that subscribe button. Anyway, on with the show.

Sean, welcome back. We are here. Good to see you. Very, very good to see you. That's a new pitcher in the background. I don't know if I've seen that one before. Have i? I'm not i'm not sure.

Sean Oldham 1:09 No, I'll raise it up a little bit. I'm in the new office. Now. I love nature. I can't wait to get back into nature. I don't know for sure that this is the road to Tofino in on Vancouver Island, one of my favorite places on earth to Coldwater surf. But they don't want to arrest right now because of COVID. But you know, when I look up at that when I'm working it, it's just it's good vibes. I feel like I'm on my way there. You know what I mean? And I'll be there again soon as soon as we're able to. But yeah, it's in my office now settled. It feels amazing.

Luke Fenwick 1:42 I love it. Very, very nice. Yeah. What's what's news? It's it's been pretty, pretty short time since we last spoke. And I know that your business is going along? Well, a number of new clients, you want to share any any part of what's happening in that space for you at the moment?

Sean Oldham 1:57 Yeah, well, I mean, I love getting to work with new clients. I love bringing new people on board. now in a position to do so more readily. So yeah, last week brought on a few more clients, and that's necessary to keep the business going. So yeah, no, it's it has been a good run. And there's a few collaborations. It's strange how it kind of starts to happen, you know what I mean? When you really kind of go all the way in and I've been waiting to move into this new house to have a little bit more free time to really kind of hit go on this thing. And yeah, the people have reaching out for collaborations and all different sorts of things. You The biggest thing is just managing time because I like to say yes, I like to be of service. So it's kind of okay, you know, like boundaries and making sure I'm not saying yes to too much because too much the main thing, the main thing,

Luke Fenwick 2:47 yeah. Do you want to shout out to anybody that you might have done a collab recently or are you kind of embargo at the moment?

Sean Oldham 2:54 Well, no, no, it's not an embargo you know, just like doing some lives, scheduling a few more lives. You know, another Jay Shetty coach reached out to me today, Tyler dhading great kid. You know, we similar views on education. So you know, long term goal we want to create a program together for kids going into their grade 12 year to kind of to kind of feed our minds with the things that we didn't get because history is not as grave as mine and probably shouldn't be speaking for him but you know, we're going to do a live together at some point so his story will be told but yeah, we share him we want to kind of create a program long term that you know, kids can take going into grade 12 to kind of set them up with the thing school doesn't teach us a lot you know, to kind of like shotgun out into the world from the start living an authentic life right from the start chasing things that are going to make you happy and fulfilled. So we connected on that so yeah, that's it you know, that's we both accepted much farther down the road. You know what I mean? Let's keep it on the back burner. But you my friend. You know how sleep men I can finally ask you what it's like to have a little girl.

Luke Fenwick 3:57 It's been good. I'm rocking my pink shirt, pink shirt today with my Fight Club T-shirt for those that might not be watching on YouTube. But my baby girl is here. She arrived. It's Friday morning here Australia time. And she arrived on Saturday, Saturday afternoon, you know a little bit before five o'clock came screaming into the world she did like the like a motorbike just tearing into the room. She was so so loud but all is gone really well. My wife is incredible really. In in you know what it's like, you know being a dad and you kind of just not part of the side show but at the end of the day like the the female body and everything they go through and what they do, it's just absolutely mind blowing.

Sean Oldham 4:49 I heard a stat once that the equivalent of being pregnant, especially as you make it near the end of term is the equivalent of approximately putting your body through running a marathon every day. So, you know, like, it's, you know, it's funny that you bring that point up, because what we're going to be talking about today is going to have some relevance to that. But you know, that's kind of it, right? Like, we as as men will never understand what it is like to create life. Right? Like, we have a very small part to play. And yet, you know, we think we can dictate terms and we, you know, like, it's, um, you know, that I think, like, that point alone should have a lot of people reframe that, you know, without without women, there is no life, right? Like, like, you know, your mother brought you into this world and carried you for nine to 10 months. So, you know, it's a, it really is the one of those things, you just kind of got to step back and support wherever you can, you know, and it's, you know, I'm early September, I'm expecting number two. So, you know, we're, we're going to be going through the same thing, but, but yeah, what are we talking about today, Luke?

Luke Fenwick 5:55 So today's episode really is a lot about, you know, men, you know, what kind of man does the world need. And so, you know, we're going to cover a little bit in regards to obviously, the quotes that we love. And we're going to cover off a movie that was launched back in 99, called Fight Club and chat about that. But I just really wanted to start with some some stats on men at the moment. Recently, I've applied to be a white ribbon. Ambassador. So I've been reading a little bit know a little bit, I've been reading a bit about stats. So I'll read this to you if you bear with me for a second. So the theme for International Men's Day in 2020, was better health for men and boys, the theme focused on improvement and enhancement of health and well being of the male population. It said that globally, men died six years younger than women in Australia. And it's mostly true for around the world. Three out of four suicides are men, men under 65 are four times more likely to die of heart disease than women, men under 75 is twice as likely to die from preventable causes than women. However, there's some other statistics which are not just related to the male himself, it is the knock on effect of what the male does to those around them. One in three women have experienced physical or sexual violence, or both in their lifetimes. domestic and family violence is a primary cause of homelessness of women and their children. And 85% of Australian women have been sexually harassed. And when I read these stats, one, I'm blown away by them, obviously, and I don't I don't say that lightly. I'm blown away for, you know, my wife and other women that might have been subject to this or women that they know, I'm blown away by this as I have a little girl and very mindful of that, when she grows up. And, and I kind of ponder and go, Well, what does this What does this really tell us about the state of not all men, this is not going to be a podcast where we are Pooh poohing the entire species or, you know, gender of men. That's not what it's about. But But when you look at stats like that, I think we need to reflect on it and say that there are issues that need to be addressed. So back to your original question. That's kind of what we want to dig into today's podcast about is just to talk about men, some of the challenges we face, what maybe are some of the things that we can do. And as we always do have a conversation about life and go from there. And that's kind of what today is about.

Sean Oldham 8:31 Yeah, you raise a good point, right? This is not about, you know, calling, calling blame into question or are talking about fault. It's just kind of raising some of these issues and just kind of like, you know, talking about what kind of man does the world need moving forward? Right, because I think it is really relevant and really worth talking about. Because, you know, I want to start by asking you this question. How much farther can we take bravado as an ethos, right? It's this this kind of, you know, like the the the machismo the constant consumption, the proving ourselves, the holding grudges the eye for an eye, right? All of these tactics, all of this kind of just like, you know, choosing to hate for the sake of hating because other groups designed to hate. You know, it's it will make the whole world blind because we're just too big now. Our toys are too evolved of destruction. That is like our weapons of mass destruction are far too dangerous that, you know, what do we need to teach? What do we need to kind of start thinking about too, just little by little, you know, just kind of improving one household at a time and just kind of eliminating this hate eliminating this anger?

Luke Fenwick 9:50 Wow. No, I don't think the bravado does us any, any good. And I think the bravado is for most parts being a real cover up. have, you know whatever's going on in the mind that we don't want to face? Like, for whatever reason, I think, if we go back to, you know, possibly when all of this started was that the world was in a really different spot and you're alluding to then like there was, there was expansion of colonies, so to speak, there was frontiers to conquer, which obviously, we know the challenges of what the conquering of frontiers is done for many, many races, and first people. But, you know, there was this war time kind of rhetoric, and the man needs to be all of these particular things. And you can't feel your emotion because you're going to war and all this kind of stuff that's been covered a lot of times in many other very learned, you know, podcasts. But that stuff is not what the world needs. Right now. The world doesn't need us to be the bravado gloss over or ignore emotions, divide and conquer, we are absolutely at the tipping point where we need to be coming together. And if we look at, you know, something like what's happened in the states over the last, you know, 12 months, four years, how have you want to look at it, that that's been about dividing and conquer, not bringing people together? And I think that's what we need. And if you talk about, like, what does the world need from a man, it's to drop the bullshit that kind of got us here. And it's to embrace some of these other qualities about how do I make this situation the best it can be? How do I make the situation, not one where I feel that I need to win. But you know, we all kind of win. And I don't want that to be the cheesy comment of the day, because that's not what it's meant to be. But that's, there's the thing that may, we'll talk a little bit about later, and where we go wrong as a man, and it's our need to control, it's our need to control other people. And it's our need to control the destination of where we are right now. And it's our need to control the outcome. And they're the things that are not serving us anymore. And that's I think, how we need to look at it, what serves us versus what doesn't.

Sean Oldham 12:02 Control, control is such a funny thing. It's such a, it's such a human tendency, right? Like, we've been trying to control nature for a really long time. You know what I mean? when things don't go according to plan, like we're so frustrated, and I'm coming back to this point, you know, you are the dominant life form, if you're listening to this, you are part of the dominant life form on this planet, that is floating around in a galaxy spinning around the Sun every 365 days, in an ever expanding universe. So that's the gift, right? Start asking about, like the questions about how do I get the most out of this gift that is going to be gone? A lot faster than we realize, you know, so like, if we start asking better questions, and start presenting our youth with better questions to answer for themselves earlier on. I think that's a starting point, don't you? I know, my life would be different if I started asking a lot better questions internally, right, a lot more interrogative self talk a lot more. You know, who am I right? Who am I? What do I want? What do I love? Like? How can I live my authentic self and my authentic life to be able to actually contribute to this world? Right, and help make the world better around me? I think we get too caught up on like the big major things when it's like, Can you just make the world better for the people around you? You know what I mean? Then just focus on you. And just because like, here's the thing look like, that I wish more people ask themselves is like, do I enjoy all this hate that I carry? Right? Do I enjoy all of this resentment that I carry? does good come from this, right? Like is life the best it could be right now holding on to all of this anger and resentment? You know what I mean? Like, I'm a recovering alcoholic. So I've gone through 12 steps more than once and done inventory. And you know, therefore, like, honesty has to be a part of my life. Right? Like, I have a very hard time. You know, leaving resentments unspoken? Or if I've done a wrong, I have to admit it, right. And this has changed the game for me now, obviously, like I couldn't have continued functioning the way I was living, but it's you want to you want to change the world, keep your side of the street clean.

Luke Fenwick 14:03 Could not agree more could not agree more on your point of we are on this planet. And it is this is our, our little spaceship flying around the galaxy. And

Sean Oldham 14:14 I've never heard that. But I love that this is a ship flying around the galaxy. I like that.

Luke Fenwick 14:18 We certainly need to trade it right. And you talk about kind of, you know, hate and forgiveness. And there was demand. Absolutely. Absolutely. That faced so so much hate. And I just want to want to talk about that. So when Nelson Mandela was inaugurated as the president of South Africa, invited him one of the guards that had subjected him to torture and even urinated on him in a grave they'd made him dig for himself. Why did he do that? And why is that an example for men today?

Sean Oldham 14:50 Well, it's actually been a minute since I read a Long Walk to Freedom, which I really wish that more people would read like, I wish a Long Walk to Freedom was mandatory. Reading in schools to be honest with you, because I think we should teach kids more of what human beings are capable of right? To learn how to correct those behaviors. But I'm paraphrasing, but it was something along the lines of this right, like Nelson Mandela said that if I resent my captors, right, like if I if I choose to go after them, if I choose to hate them, then I'm still in captivity. Right? So, you know, by inviting this man, it's a greater, greater chance for change. Right. Like, the thing is, is that what's very true and what I've understood because I heard Nelson Mandela said, is that the resent tr is always worse off than the resent T. Right? So, you know, with if you're holding on to resentments, right? Do you think Nelson Mandela could have achieved all that he achieved? And I really look like a Long Walk to Freedom is one of my favorite books of all time, right? It was a game changer. It like opened my eyes to a lot of things. And, you know, could Nelson Mandela have had the impact on the world that he did if he was a spiteful angry person and who had more reason to be angry than Nelson Mandela 27 years incarcerated, I think it was 19 or 20 of them on Robben Island, right? And not the entire time, but most of it on Robben Island. And they did things to him, like, you know, dig your own grave and then urinate on him. I mean, like, man, human beings are capable of some really bad shit. Sorry for the language. But, you know, this is what I mean like groupthink, right? Like, those guards probably knew what they were doing was wrong. But they couldn't look bad in front of the other guards, they were part of a system, right? So it takes people to drive a wedge into the system to start to change the system. And, you know, I think that how Nelson Mandela behaved and how he came out of that, I honestly think it should be a class taught in high school, you know, when when you're able to start to understand it, and maybe it is, you know, maybe maybe it is now maybe like the history is a little bit more modern, and they're talking about more relevant things. I'll know more when my children start to go through the schooling system. But But yeah, I mean, that's kind of it on Nelson Mandela, like, there are very few people I look up to more and, you know, it, just remembering that always kind of reminds me to be grateful, right. And like, I don't always succeed, but I come back to it. And, you know, like, being able to see the book on the bookshelf, it helps to kind of bring me back to that space, then it just kind of reminds me, you know, where can I be of service? Right? Where am I holding on to any potential resentments. And you know, it's not always easy to give them up, right? But there are different tools, different tactics to do. So you know, to like, forgive your past self to forgive somebody, even if you're not going to talk to them directly, right, like I read Kemal Ravi Khan's book, Love yourself, like your life depends on it. And you know, he suggested that you write a letter to your past self forgiving yourself or forgiving whomever, and then either burn it to make it ceremonial, or like tie it to a rock and throw it in the ocean, because like the act of that is very therapeutic and very cathartic, right. So you know, there's, there's many tools to kind of get past resentment writing is usually one of them. But you know, it just comes down to kind of self reflection and asking questions of oneself, because the one thing that Nelson Mandela decided that they couldn't take from him, was his mind. Right? And he knew that he always was got to keep his mind and his thoughts, right, and stay positive and believe that he would be out one day. And, you know, it just kind of shows you the resilience and perseverance. So back to what does the world need today, the world could use a lot more Nelson Mandela's the world could use a lot more people that can stare in the face of hate and overcome it and realize that more hate won't solve anything. You know, and it's a it's a message that unfortunately, has not gripped the world yet. But it's a it's a fantastic lesson. And if anybody's listening A Long Walk to Freedom by Nelson Mandela could just change your life a little bit.

Luke Fenwick 19:05 Let's we'll let's make sure that we put that in the show notes and our and our posts as well, just so people can get that and he certainly would not have flown to the heights of what he did if he was carrying that weight over height with him. And I think the world would not have gone on to do some of the things that it has and, and his his thoughts and messaging would not have then impacted so many people to go and do what they have that have supported movements around the world. So he spawned many imagination, and he wouldn't have been able to do that back to your original point if he was carrying that. That weight of hate around with him and just would not have been possible. Very, very, very different man.

Sean Oldham 19:47 Yeah. And that's, I mean, you know, that's why I had to talk about him today. Right? And He's, uh, it's, yeah, again, I'm gonna move on from the subject. I believe I have a quote from him coming up later, but I you know, There's a lot to talk about today and I could talk about Nelson Mandela for the rest of this show. Because that's one of my all time favorite books, but I want to ask you this, Luke, you've got your Fight Club shirt on, it's for a reason. It's been about 20 years. There's a reason for this.

Luke Fenwick 20:14 That's a really old t shirt two very old t shirt and my pink pink shirt for Billie.

Sean Oldham 20:21 Yeah, exact sorry, bit the name of your daughter again, Luke?

Luke Fenwick 20:24 Is Billie B.I.L.L.I.E., her middle name is Dawn and people might have seen dawn or used a little bit in my world. So dawn was my mother's middle name. mom passed away a few years ago so I've used that dawn a number of things that I do because it means a lot to me and it also means...

Sean Oldham 20:43 it beautiful man. I don't know that I'm happy that I know that now. That's hilarious. You have a Billie I have a Lilly guy. Yeah. Moving on to about Fight Club great movie and I'm actually gonna rewatch it myself. Because it a lot of good allegories in that movie right it's there's there's a lot of things to just that that get you thinking in that movie. And I watched it without the mind that I have now like with with for analytics. So like basically, I want to go back and I want to pull a bunch of stuff from it cuz you've got me thinking now. But here it is. So Luke, Matt Goldberg wrote Fight Club doesn't offer answers to the struggles of the world, but a critique. It's not a celebration of directionless men, but rather that the modern world had commodified everything to the point where toxic masculinity becomes its own brand. Tyler portrayed Tyler Durden the character portrayed by Brad Pitt has everything figured out and speaks to a post capitalist malaise were men trapped by crummy jobs and cheated out the wings, they were promised being millionaires, movie Gods rock stars, whatever it might be, can only feel alive by beating the crap out of each other in darkened basements. But it's a cop out. instead of facing it and creating change and embracing what exists. They run away. So elaborate.

Luke Fenwick 22:09 Well, that's kind of if if you if you've watched the movie and think that it's basically a bunch of men punching themselves in the face, and you know, creating chaos is Okay, then you've absolutely.

Sean Oldham 22:19 That's what I thought, because I watched it when I was about 20.

Luke Fenwick 22:21 Yeah, yeah. And you're kind of you've missed the point. And I think the hard part is is is Brad Pitt in it is like, he's a cool character, if you're a young guy, and you know, he's swagger is swagger, he's shredded. He's got the shaved head, you know, he's doing all kinds of cool stuff. You know, that guy's awesome. But...

Sean Oldham 22:40 I wanted a leather jacket. After watching that I wanted his like brown leather jacket that he had still haven't gotten it.

Luke Fenwick 22:45 But leather jacket, the tracksuit pants that he was wearing with the leather jacket, and the Hawaiian top or whatever it was, it was all kinds of crazy stuff that I just could not wear myself. But, you know, the issue is, is that instead of instead of embracing the situation, understanding what the reality is, and being part of change, they react like children, they, you know, they walk away from the opportunity to actually make change, they talk about, you know, turning the world into chaos by crushing the credit system. You know, the main character played by Ed Norton has this love interest that has or has the ability to provide all of the things that he's seeking in life that he's replacing with his IKEA furniture, because he can't handle the situation, he has the opportunity to find love and connection and all this stuff. But again, he walks away from it and invents this fight club and the character, which is Tyler Durden to not face the reality and the emotions that exists with him. So he'd rather start a fight with strangers, than fall in love and go through that, that, you know, paste of what we're here for. And that's what, that's what this is all about. Right? This is not guys beating each other up buddies, but that's not the point of the movie. And that's why it really appealed to me. I went back and watch it again the other day, and they're talking about, you know, his feelings, his room with condiments, you know, no food, just condiments, you know, he's got his IKEA, this, that the other everything you know, because that's what he's doing. He's buying this stuff, to make himself feel complete. He's not getting into the relationship because he can't handle that situation. He doesn't want to feel or cannot process those emotions. So he creates this other, you know, alter ego, to avoid all of those things. And that's what the movies about and I think that's part of the problem that men face today as well is that we don't want to face we don't want to get into the reality of what is going on. We would rather tear down then build Up of what's going around us. And that's not what the world needs, we need to embrace that we need to go this is what the reality is, this is how we make it better, not for just our select group of friends. But for all of these people that are, you know, inhabiting this place with us. That's what we're missing at the moment. We're not doing this for the wider good, we're doing this for these people that we know and we're connected with and the same amount drive the same fancy car and how have you want to look at that stuff, not to worry about the rest of the world. That's the problem.

Sean Oldham 25:34 It's something that I thought when you were saying that, because I agree with every word you just said. Bravado is not for others, bravado is for self. Right.

Luke Fenwick 25:43 Absolutely.

Sean Oldham 25:45 Bravado, is exactly what this movie was right. And I thought of a random thought while you were speaking about, you know, How different would the movie have been had early on because I've mentioned Kemal Ravi Khan before, right? I love that book. Love yourself, like your life depends on it. I didn't read it at a time when it was kind of like I was down. I read it because the title fascinated me and you know, I thought maybe I could I could use this to help other clients, right. But he asked himself a question when it comes to between a rock and a hard place. And it's a question he comes back to often that I now utilize as well. And I once upon a time would have been embarrassed to say this, right? But I don't care anymore. Because I just want to live a life where I don't have anxiety. I don't have stress. I'm not looking over my shoulder. I'm not regretting decisions I made because I acted on impulse. We're trying to impress somebody else, right? But what if early in the movie, Ed Norton's character asked himself if I love myself truly and deeply, what would I do? This the movie exists, can you continue going on? or whatever? Does he find himself, you know? But it's just it's exactly right. He took the path of least resistance instead of wrestling with discomfort instead of because why do most people sabotage relationships? Why do most people run when things start to get good is fear of loss, right? Love is terrifying, because it means you might lose something. And that brings out all kinds of emotions and people that are different in every single person, you know what I mean? Like, we're all a mixed bag of a lot of different parts based on where we come from, and who came before us and who contributed to our evolutionary machinery, right. I'm talking grandparents ancestors. So some of it is nature, some of it is nurture. I used to think it was a lot more nature than nurture. Right now I realize through you know, reading a lot of work on the stuff that it's probably closer to 25%, nature 75% nurture, right, your environment and what you create. But, you know, I think that's a classic example of fear, right, and toxic masculinity and going with what is easy, I mean, doing all the things they did were crazy. In that movie, though, from what I can remember. But the reality is going to hang out with a bunch of dudes and punching yourself punching each other in the face is easier than committing to a lifelong relationship and sticking through the hard times.

Luke Fenwick 28:04 Yeah, you have ... Look, absolutely. It was. I'm still trying to wrap my head around where the movie could have gone. I'm going okay, what what...

Sean Oldham 28:12 I knew that would stop you I knew a little bit.

Luke Fenwick 28:17 Very very different. But like, check it out. If you haven't seen it, like we said, It's from from 99. It is a really cool film. It's certainly watching it now later on in life, you know, you take it from a very, very different angle, but brand acting, great directing. And I think that's the challenge with a tour is the the acting and the directing, which is so enticing in regards to let's go start a soap business, do all these crazy things, and just not and just not go with what life can offer. And we spoke about control at the start. And that's that's kind of what it was he you know, he was trying to control things and and just didn't want to didn't want to fall fall into that relationship out of fear for what could come next.

Sean Oldham 29:05 Why don't you elaborate on that? Right? Because like, the question I had for you is what is a characteristic that you frequently see in men that can lead to challenges in life for them and others? Now, a lot of this has already been covered. But you know, how can you elaborate on that? And that that is the control piece?

Luke Fenwick 29:22 It's really good question. Because that that is absolutely I think the challenge that we have is that a lot of men try to control. If I go back to the White Ribbon stuff on where some of these thoughts come from, you know, the challenge is not just physically controlling. It's also the mental control that men place on partners. So I want to say women's place on partners so, it is the controlling of you can't see this person, you can't go there. This is what you should do with financially. Like there's all of these kind of control things that we put on other people which is a challenge. The other part that we try to do also for ourselves is Always control the outcome and the narrative, you know, I will need to achieve this particular thing, if I control this situation, then I'll win that conversation if I control that, and this is the path that I have chosen. And then that's what kind of leads to that conflict dynamics further down the track, when people start to go out, I'm not controlling anything, I've always controlled stuff. I've always gotten what I wanted. In that situation, I wanted that to happen. So I've just pushed and shoved all the way through in my younger years to this point. And it seems to surface when people get a little bit older that they actually start to figure out why don't really have that control. And if you've built your life around, having that it's like a house of cards. Once you know, one comes out, and you lose control over that, that that then it can kind of tumbled down, but I think that is one of the biggest issues that faces and it has a knock on effect into all these other areas of life.

Sean Oldham 30:57 Yes, yes, 100%. And I want to expand on that as well. That element of control and thinking that you can write like thinking that you do have control over some of these things, is also kind of your your you're taking the risk of placing your happiness on external factors, right? Because your happiness is related to having control, right? And you are going to be happy when you perceive that you have control. But how much do we really have control over I want to come back to the point that we were floating around on this giant spaceship that magically, perfectly mathematically goes around the sun, and 365.25 days a year, right? Like how this all occurs? We're getting closer with some answers, but we'll never know it all probably right? Definitely not in our lifetime. But you know, when you risk, you risk, a great deal. You risk not being able to experience fulfillment in your life, if you place your happiness outside of yourself if you give that responsibility to anybody else. Right? So So men, what we are talking about what the world needs today, is men that are brave enough to be vulnerable men that are brave enough to say when you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't working for me or, you know, I disagree with you, or you know, like, you're right, I was wrong. And I shouldn't have done that, you know, and like, because that's where bravado fails us is the inability to admit that we were wrong. Because consistency is so important for a human being right, because that helped us in civilization. If you looked inconsistent, once upon a time, you were either a witch burned at the stake, or, you know, your Brett behavior was erratic. So you did not fit into civilization. So we learned as humans to be consistent, really important, right? So if you take a stance on something, and you go hard at it, and then you realize you're wrong, not everybody has the ability to say I was very wrong here. Steve Jobs has said something and I'm gonna paraphrase now, but he's like, I want to work with people. Or maybe he said, I am the person. But either way, it was very important to Steve Jobs, to work with people that were that were confident enough to highlight when he was wrong, because he didn't care. He just wanted to get the best possible product out there in the world. Because if you remember his mission statement, is he wanted to make a dent in the universe, right? Like that was what the mission was at the start of Apple, pretty broad statement, but pretty big dream. Right? So like, what is more important? Being right? Or getting it right? You know, like, it's, there's two very different things. And unfortunately, were fightclub you know, the the analogies you were making there, and where I failed a lot early in life was in wanting to be right, right, failed relationships. You know, I sabotaged a lot of them, you know what I mean? I did a lot of the wrong things because I, man, like, it is just not worth getting up on your soapbox and being righteous about something. You know what I mean? Especially if at the end of the day, is this gonna matter to me in five years, two years, one year, but then we can get so fired up about that thing in the moment. And man, I could have saved myself a couple, you know, wrinkles on the forehead. If, you know, I'd let a few of these things go sooner. But you know, now I have right like it's it's it's amazing, because if you had met me in my 20s, Luke, you wouldn't recognize the you wouldn't recognize me at all. And you wouldn't have thought I want to do a podcast with that fella. Right? And it just it comes down to it came down to just kind of fear and having no clue who I was. And I just didn't get the the process of self discovery, self education, asking yourself questions, right. I just, I had certain beliefs that I carried with me because an adult or somebody said something to me when I was a kid and I just I believed in those limitations that he was, you know what I mean? And on goes toxic masculinity.

Luke Fenwick 34:51 So how much has the power and the art of conversation changed your life because I think that is something that men, Again, we're using that broad brushstroke. But men generally maybe struggle with is the art of being able to have the conversation and speak what is on their mind and not walk into a conversation saying, you know, I need to own this space, I need to win the outcome, and have that fear of a conversation is going to turn into a confrontation, which I think so many men walk into thinking that a conversation is just going to turn into that. So the question in a roundabout way to you is how much has the art of conversation, and sharing and giving shaped who you are now, versus maybe who you were when you were younger?

Sean Oldham 35:41 It changed absolutely everything, like absolutely everything for me, right? Because I realized something a few years back, that I despise small talk. I, like despises unfair, but I don't like doing it for the majority of my day. Right. And that was a big reason why my previous profession stopped being enjoyable to me, because it was heavily, heavily small talk, right? heavily. presentation, and material and, you know, just appearances and vanity, you know what I mean? So it started to weigh me down a little bit. And the biggest breakthrough for me in my life, like, you know, it could be obvious to say the first time I stepped into an a meeting and put down the drink. That was part of it. But the biggest game changer for me was after me and a couple friends all went through something pretty hard around the same time. And instead of turtling and instead of, you know, like, like going into a shell. We decided to start a book club, right. And the first book that we read in that book club was the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Right. And, you know, again, the old man would have thought, this is the nerdiest geekiest thing I've ever heard of, right? Like, who doesn't book club but you know, it's just I find it was cool to be that way. And because I was modeling myself after some people that I foolishly looked up to at the time, and you know, that book club and those fellows, my my good friends, Jesse Hahn, soft and leaving bihan. It was just kind of like, man, I didn't know this was possible to go this deep with other men, right? Because we unfortunately, live in a society where it's not encouraged to build deep bonds with other men further into deeper into life, right? It's almost kind of like that, that taboo thing until at least recently, it's starting to come a little bit more in vogue to get a therapist, get a coach, maybe, and start digging deep into your world, right. But for most of our life, like I grew up, it was still not cool. It was really not cool. Just be a man, you know, like, throw a steak on it old school. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't, it wasn't welcome, because I played hockey, I played rugby. You know, I played all of these sports, where it was just like macho men doing macho things. So unfortunately, I didn't, I didn't find the right role model early or early enough. I'm not upset about it, because it gives me context for living now that it's like I am going to maximize the rest of my years. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not Never going to stop learning. I'm never going to stop asking questions. And I'm never gonna stop having these types of conversations that activate my soul. Right? Matthew McConaughey says something that I love, like in Matthew McConaughey is another guy, like, somebody I wish I could have a coffee with. I'm just gonna throw it into the universe. Now, Luke, what's up Matthew McConaughey on the show in a year or two? Right? But like,

Luke Fenwick 38:41 I'm going to write that one down right now.

Sean Oldham 38:43 Yeah, yeah. But But, you know, he has a saying, oh, man, I lost it. But he has so many. But you know, basically, it's a he, there's a quote that will come to you later, I'll get back to McConaughey, I'm kidding. I'm really frustrated myself that I lost that thought I had a beauty but I lost it. But anyways, I want to move on to something else I want to I want to ask you about, about a quote here. That is pretty powerful one. So what you do speaks, and we've talked about this, I think, but "what you do speak so loudly that I cannot hear what you say". Why is this quote important to this conversation Luke?

Luke Fenwick 39:27 Well, it's about actions at the end of the day. And, you know, I, I look at this, and I go What, what you do speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you say. Saying I love us an important part. Right? And, you know, sharing words and feelings is an important part. But you've got to do you got to do this other stuff around it. Right? You can't say I love you. And then and be all these other controlling demeaning negative aspects. To your partner, you know, I think on a words, words cheap, sometimes they can be very powerful. And you know, there's so many things where you just hear some amazing words, and it blows your mind. But at the end of the day, life is about then going out and doing something about it, isn't it, it's not about just reading it, it's not about just hearing it, it's not about just saying it is then getting off your butt going and putting it into action, and making a difference to whoever it is that you're trying to make a difference to. And I think that's kind of why I like this. And it's one of those ones that always trips me up, I look at it three different times and want to go in different directions. But that's where I kind of come from, it's about doing it.

Sean Oldham 40:47 No, it's, uh, you know, it's funny, I was I was just, I was having a workout before this. And when I have a workout I just now put on I go to YouTube and just put on, like, some motivational videos, so they just keep playing. Yeah, it just randomly got onto a Les Brown tape. And, you know, Les Brown started talking about a lot of different things. And he was he was talking about the same subject, right? And he's like, if you show me, if I follow you around, right, if you say you want to be successful, if you say you want to be successful, and you claim that you want something, I'm gonna hang out with you for a day and watch your behavior. I'm gonna see what you do, right? Because I'm gonna see if you actually are what you're saying you're wanting to do. Because words at the end of the day don't matter, right? You can want something as badly as you could ever absolutely think you could want something. But if you fail to act, if you fail to take that first step, sit in the discomfort of failing, because that's the thing a lot of people stop at failure, right? Because it's uncomfortable. We don't like it. And especially with our education system the way it is. Do you think kids leave high school unless they have a good mentor role model or education within the home? How do you think most people think about failure? When you're spending your entire education system? Avoiding failure, right? Because if you fail, it's bad. It's literally like, it's, it's binary, it's one or the other. Right? And it like the first time I really started to understand the logic about like, you have to fail, right? You have to you have to fail, you have to learn through the failure, you need to continue to fail, you need to actually seek out failure, right? The first time I heard that, I thought it was the craziest thing I've ever heard. I'm like, No, you want to avoid failure, like failure is like what, like, the only thing that you want to avoid? Right? And it's it's just, it's crazy to me to think like how did I go through 30 years of my life not understanding this concept? But I did. And there's a lot of other people that do too, right? Because why is there a 1%? Luke, Right? Why is there a 1% of the population? That number in the United States, I believe, is $400,000. Right? What, like, only 1% of the population is earning $400,000 or more. Right? So it's a number that, you know, should be attainable for more people, but it isn't. So, you know, how do we change that narrative? How do we get, you know, into the minds of, of the high school students? How do we change the system a little bit, so that we're not fearing failure, right? Because like this The success rate, man, the stats speak for themselves, right? If you look at Instagram, everybody's killing it. Everybody's living their best life, but everybody has everything they could ever want. But you know, if you look at the national debt averages, like in my country, we're not doing as good as Instagram says, right? It's the same in the United States. And you know, it again, like, how do we shift the focus to kind of shotgun kids out of high school? Without the notion of I'm successful? If I have these things, I'm successful if I present well, right. And, you know, that's that I've kind of gone in a few different directions. So good luck answering that. But, you know, what do you think?

Luke Fenwick 43:58 I go back to the part you were talking about at the start, where, you know, follow someone around for the day and see what their actions are, and you know, about success and stuff like that. And I wrote down here, you know, if someone is sitting at home listening to this, or driving in the car, and they are, they're going, like, I want to be that change, and I want to be a different father or a different, you know, husband or partner, or whatever it is. And, you know, I do say that I love this person, I do care for them, but I actually don't, don't then put it into action. You know, I don't show them this, then then the only person that can make that change is you. Like you are the one if someone was following you around for the day, and you say that you're a loving, caring man that has open conversations and he's sharing and giving and all of this stuff. If someone was following you around for a day would actually say that about you. Or is this just something that you kind of trot out at the convenient time to say this is the kind of person And, you know, I wish I was all men should be. And I'm not sitting here saying by any stretch of the imagination that I'm perfect or my God, I am so far from it. But, you know, I'm conscious of the things that I'm trying to change and how I want to be a better, you know, dad and you know, a husband and a person. And that's up to me, that's not up to my wife, or my little girl or my little boy to make that change for me and me, I need to go on to do those things. So think of it that way. If someone's following you around around for the day, are you living up to the, to the imagery that you are conjuring up in your mind? Are you putting it into action? And if not, then maybe it's time to try to change?

Sean Oldham 45:44 Yes, no, I did. Absolutely. Is there something that you said in there? And I'm gonna say this very quickly, because we need to move on to the next segment, because we don't want to want to keep going past an hour here. But the like, I think I remember the Matthew McConaughey thing that I wanted to say. And it's that Oscar speech, the very famous Oscar speech, you ever seen it Luke?

Luke Fenwick 46:02 Yeah. Yeah. I remember the one. I do remember that the one.

Sean Oldham 46:07 It's a brilliant speech. And, you know, he talks about, like, having something to chase and you spoke about it there. Right. I you have something that you're chasing? And I think that's the difference, right? Like that is absolutely crucial to success is getting clear on what it is that you're chasing? His his like, again, to summarize that bit of his speech was he was asked by somebody, you know, at 15, like a high school teacher or a coach or something, you know, like, Who are you? Like, who is the person like you're chasing? Or like, Who's your role model? Like, who is the Who is your example or something like that? And he said, Oh, that's easy for me in 10 years, right? And then you know, that he happened to run into that person again in about 10 years. And he's like, so, you know, did you catch him? Are you you in 10 years? Are you who you thought you'd be? And he's like, no, not even close. Not even close. But that's not the point. Right? I set the bar high, and I keep chasing, because you have to always have something to chase. Right. And, you know, that's, that's a, that's a big part of it, man, because a lot of people are wandering are out there without a sail, you know, stuck in the middle of the ocean, hoping that they end up at a bounty of treasure. Right. But that is not a winning system. And, yeah, it's, it's, uh, you know, it, I got that, from what you said, right? Like having a target, like I have a target, a very clear target. It's a moving target intentionally. It's never something I'm gonna hit, right? Because it's like that bunny rabbit going around the track. You know what I mean? It's moving faster than ever gonna catch it. But that's the point. set the bar high. It's like a high jumper, right? If you look at high jumpers, they like they barely clear the bar, right? And you're like, wow, there's no way they're gonna get it when they when they when they raise it up. But most do, then they raise it up again and the pack thins out, right? But the lesson there is that if you set the bar really high, you may not clear it, but you're gonna get a lot closer and farther than you ever would have. Had you not set the bar that high, right? You're gonna jump higher than you ever would have if you set the bar low. So you know what I mean?

Luke Fenwick 48:07 So much so much beauty and gold in there. Absolutely don't, you know, aim for over it, don't go under it, like wild is at that bar. I'll get into these two quotes from you. Because I know that you love a quote. But you know, I know you just couldn't choose one. So I'll give you two. How does that sound? So the effect you have on others is the greatest currency there is by Jim Carrey. And in Nelson Mandela is back. And he's saying this time resentment is like drinking poison and hoping it will kill your enemies. So I'll throw those through to you. Over to you.

Sean Oldham 48:44 Well, this is why I tried to clear resentment from my heart, Luke, like this is why I tried to live resentment free. And this quote has always like, again, I realized I was paraphrasing, and I didn't have it in an exactitude until I looked it up. But what Jim Carrey is saying is that there's no greater value than the value you can provide to another person, right? And you have the choice. And we that's the thing that we don't always realize is we always have a choice, right? Even in the hardest times, right? Again, look at Nelson Mandela. And, you know, that's why that's what Jim Carrey made the mission of his life right to ease the stress for people, even if just temporary, right? To make their lives a little bit easier, if even just temporary. So the effect you have on others is the greatest currency there is means that the ultimate responsibility is when you go into the world. How are you making people feel? Are you making the world better because you were here? Or are you going through the world with a bunch of resentment, thinking that you're really sticking it to somebody, but how are you being for the loved ones around you if you're carrying around so much resentment and hate? Right? It really is a broken model. It doesn't work, right? Like listen to Nelson Mandela. I'm gonna say it again. Resentment is like drinking poison and hoping it will kill your enemies, right. And this is coming from a man that again was on was incarcerated for 27 years for just wanting to have some basic human rights for him and people of the same skin color. And this was not very long ago. Right? And it's, it's, uh, yeah, that's, that's why I'm coming back to it again, I'm probably gonna read the book again, because it had that big of an impact on my life. But, you know, sit on those words, right? If those don't, if that quote is like, I don't get it yet, or, you know, it's it hasn't affected me quite yet or you don't, you're not ready, you're listening to this. And you're, you're you're holding on to some resentments. And some things really get to you, and you let a lot of things get to you like I did, I had a lot of things get to me, you know, and it caused a lot more stress in my life than it needed to just hold on to those words, and let them let them marinate for a while, because if it doesn't click now, it eventually will. And it will make your life a hell of a lot better if you can find out how to forgive, and how to move forward without resentment and hate in your heart. And that's why those two quotes together are extremely powerful for me, because they really do go hand in hand. And it's it's kind of my new mission in life now is to just kind of help free people from, you know, the invisible prisons that we keep ourselves in through our own doing.

Luke Fenwick 51:25 Beautiful, man. Thank you for those beautiful quotes. And thank you for for sharing that little bit. The end of thing. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

Sean Oldham 51:33 No worries, man. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Luke Fenwick 51:36 Back to Matthew McConaughey. Again, so you mentioned in past chat that Matthew said that he was not the slightest surprised that Donald Trump got elected in the first time around. Remind me again. And why that applies to this conversation?

Sean Oldham 51:52 Values. The point that he was making was values, right? And he wasn't surprised. He didn't say he was in support. He said he wasn't surprised because what do we value? What do we promote right now I'm not American, I'm just kind of some Canadian, but I'm I'm more or less paraphrasing what he said. hoping not to offend any potential, you know, American audience. But basically, the point was this, right? He's like, if we don't want this to occur, he's like, why do you think celebrities keep getting into office? Right? Like, you know, there was the Ronald Reagan, you know, and then Donald Trump makes it in and you know, cuz because people, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger was governor of California, he would have been a better president, but he wasn't allowed to because he's not born in this country. But The Rock...

Luke Fenwick 52:37 The Rock is going back for the next one. Apparently,

Sean Oldham 52:41 Dwayne the Rock Johnson is talking about it. Yes. And I think that actually would be a good thing. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie to you, I think that he has more interested more people don't like good for more people, right. But the point that he was making is that if we don't want to elect people like this, then our values and what we promote needs to change, right? And we promote money, right? We promote, like, get all the things get the big house, like accumulate a bunch of crap, right? Because the moment we are old enough to think, and my daughter is about to be at that age, there are people whose sole profession is to market to her and to get inside her mind and make her a consumer for life. Right? And how do we do that through popular culture, through celebrity endorsements, through fame, fame, fame, right. And it's not that all fame is bad. It's just that when you make that all that is in Vogue, and you know, people that don't really know better, or grow up in a household where, you know, the TV's always on, and we're always watching movies. And you know, I do watch a decent amount of movies. I like watching a movie at the end of the day, every once in a while. But it's that that was his point, right is like until we change what we value, our values can't change. So you know, that was something that I thought was really interesting, because you know, you want to talk about toxic masculinity. You want to talk about politics and division and fear. You want to talk about increasing hatred. Well, you know, that was Donald Trump's agenda for four years, you can't look back on history and say it was anything different, right? Divide and Conquer, he knew that he had to rally his base. He knew there was only one type of person that was gonna vote for him. So he just kind of had to be a certain way. And until we change what we value as a society, our values can't change.

Luke Fenwick 54:27 Hmm, yeah, it's very true. And without getting into all the political side of things that like, at the end of the day, second time around, a massive portion of that population still voted for him. You know, I don't know what that tells us, other than your right is appealed to a certain part of society. Maybe that part of society was really fearful of what was happening around the world and they didn't want those to change. Maybe part of that society bought into the promises of what he would deliver. As as a president, and you know, and maybe that's something that we take away from this whole thing is that we aren't all the same. We have fears, and fears drive us to do many things that other people might not understand. And I think buying in and spreading fear, I'm not talking about him here I'm talking about in general, buying into fear and spirits, spreading fear, and dividing. And not caring or giving is not going to serve us in the long run. And we need to do something about that as individuals, because collectively, we cannot keep cashing the checks that we are, it just will not work. And we can see how it's not working right now. But maybe all of that's for another, a very, very different podcast. But let's bring this let's bring this thing to a close. So Shawn, we're obviously talking about systemic change here. No, overnight solutions do not appear evidence that is absolutely clear. How do you suppose we can create the environment that will result in turning those statistics that we covered at the start into rarities, rather than the high frequency, right? There's absolutely occurring now across the planet?

Sean Oldham 56:19 Well, that there is no easy answer. And I'm definitely not going to claim that my answer here is is is correct there, there are going to be differing opinions. But this is something that I'm extremely passionate about. It's It's It's education overhaul, right, like it's, uh, you know, because because humans want to cling to what they have for as long as they can. And you know, the wealth usually sits with the older part of the population until you know, the the younger group get further up there and more established. So because of this, and because humans fear change, policy, and society is usually about 20 to 30 years behind, because the people holding on to power, don't want to recognize the changes happening in the world, right. So because of this, the system is kind of broken, and we're always pushing for change, the younger people are always pushing for change. But it's not until we have power that we can execute that change. And then once we have the ability to execute that change, it's some of it's probably out of date because of how quickly the world moves. Right. So at some point, it's almost like we have to say, okay, we've made a decent mess of things, right? Like, like, we've got to stop fighting each other, we've got to start loving each other a little bit more as simple as that sounds. But you know, what, if for once humanity could come together and say, Okay, can we all just agree that we might not be able to live in anything close to utopian society while we're alive, but maybe our kids and their kids can, and just change the game a little bit, by changing the education system, and making it less about learning specific things about specific things, and more about finding passions, finding truths, right, and asking questions like, what does the world need? Because we're actually at a point where we have to start asking, what does the world need to survive? Right? Well, figuring certain things out, like how to power our grid sustainably, right? How to create clean, renewable energy that, you know, doesn't create atomic bombs as a byproduct, right? So you know, because, you know, uranium is probably gonna have to play a big role in sustaining our grids and clean energy. But no one's really talking about that, because the Fukushima disaster scared everybody away from uranium, right? But if you read Bill Gates, he's talking about uranium is necessary to power grids in the future. Right? So why is it that we fear that our kids in high school are too young to understand these things, or to really dive into these things? I mean, some of it is talked about there are clubs and again, maybe the landscape has changed more than I know, Luke, but there's a lot of room for growth still, right. So again, I don't have the answer. But it's education, overhaul and education reform, and less us telling the kids what they must learn. There are things they should learn, right, like math, you want to teach math, because we need polymaths we need mathematicians, we need scientists. So you know, it's important to allow kids to dabble into these things. But the education system wasn't for me, right? Teachers hated me. I was in the principal's office a lot. got sent home a lot. You know, I was labeled ADHD. You know, my guidance counselor said that, oh, it's he's just, he's just fooling around. It's up to him to figure it out. You know what I mean? But like, I literally couldn't read. I got back then like, I was dyslexic. I like I had a hard time pulling words off the page. But I was just labeled a problem child that didn't like to be there. Not the case. Once I got to university, I loved it, man. I wanted to learn and now it's an insatiable desire that I cannot cure. I just constantly want to be reading and learning. Right? If I could sit in the library and read all weekend, I probably would. But back then I was alienated as a problem child that didn't want to learn. That was just there to cause a ruckus, right? So education overhaul. Let's give our kids a much better chance to create a world that maybe we don't get to live in, but we're going to run out of great If we just keep consuming like this, you know what I mean? So I went on for a bit there, like I tend to do. But yeah, man, I'm passionate really, really, really, really passionate about like, giving our kids every chance to think for themselves and live their most authentic lives and not decide for them.

Luke Fenwick 1:00:16 Alright, so let me kind of summarize what you've just said, and maybe what we've taken away from the show, because our original question was absolutely around what kind of man does the world need. And maybe that is a man that he's happy to sit and read and learn, a man that he's happy to share. That's a man that's happy to educate himself and educate those around him have different points of view, not just his own. And it's absolutely a man that's willing to love and give and do more fathers around him. And I think maybe that's the kind of world...

Sean Oldham 1:00:49 And to sit in their vulnerabilities and accept their imperfections and let go this notion of perfect and always having to save face, you know what I mean? That's like, letting go of saving face.

Luke Fenwick 1:01:00 Yeah. Yeah, that's that's all the learning and sharing and giving and loving and educating. You know, we aren't perfect, we can't. We just can't keep that notion in our mind and our imperfections, other stories that should be shared with those around us, not hidden away, or covered up because that does the world. Absolutely, no good.

Sean Oldham 1:01:22 And figure out who you are. Because it just came to me, the Matthew McConaughey piece, figure out who you are right? Through figuring out who you are not first, right? rule out the things that you are, you don't love and slowly start to figure out who you are, right? Because again, what I was saying I was saying it from the standpoint of how can you kind of start to maybe avoid like, like get away from some of this bravado and toxic masculinity. It's through education. There's no other tool that's more powerful, right. So like that. I didn't say it specifically. But that was my point, right? But figure out who you are, by figuring out who you are not right. So that you can do more things that lead to your authentic life, which is the only way you're truly going to get the maximum fulfillment out of life is being who you are. And lastly is just, you know, don't do things that antagonize your character, right? Look for soul activating activities that make you feel alive, that also benefit humanity and the world gets better.

Luke Fenwick 1:02:20 Beautiful. Well with that. Thank you everyone for listening. If you did enjoy it, share like, love it. Tell your friends. We'll be back in a few weeks for Episode Six. But until then, be safe, be present, be you.

Sean Oldham 1:02:36 And always be fulfilled.

Luke Fenwick 1:02:39 Bye for now.